For those who doubted the American dream and it's creed that "all men were created equal," today is the day you have waited for. In my interview with the guys from "Dispatches from (A)mended America", I told Godfrey and Brandt that I thought two beautiful things came out of this election. The first thing is the fact that 50 years ago, Obama would not have even been considered for President...of anything, much less the United States of America. We have come a long way from separate water fountains, backs of buses, and sit ins at the local diner. The second thing is that we lived up to our potential as the greatest nation in the world. We proved that we do live in a democracy. Not that I was doubting the system before, but I do not think that we were living up to our full potential. If we had been then there would have been no need to for Martin Luther King to have a dream or for Rosa Parks to sit on that bus.
Today, our government turned over power to the incoming administration and there were no riots in the streets, no one died, and with the exception a few bozos who felt the need to take away from the greatness of the day with boos for the outgoing President and V.P. (read about it here), the day was peaceful and filled with excitement, wonder, and joy. Today is not the day to start fighting about policy and what is going to happen next. Save it for tomorrow. There will be plenty of time for arguments, criticism, and disagreements over the next four years. Today let's celebrate our country and the people who make it great.
44 comments:
and to think, you didn't even vote for him.
People who leave anonymous comments are the worst part of the internet.
I didn't have to vote for him to respect him and what his being in office means for America and the world. I don't have to agree with someone to respect them and their opinion. That is fabulous part about living in this great nation. No one is pointing a gun to my head or your head ordering us to think a certain way. We live in a country where freedom of speech and thought is not only encouraged but a right afforded us by the constitution. Way to go, Founding Fathers.
AND...I would disable the ability for readers to comment anonymously but then I wouldn't get to experience the ignorance of the American people to the fullest.
Race is not an issue - so why does everyone insist on making it one - hate or celebrate?
Furthermore, yesterday was a day of celebrating. I celebrated the way that Former Pres. Bush and wife, Laura CONSISTENTLY have lived a life as a testimony of God's grace. They have spent their 8 years true to their beliefs and a genuine concern to Americans- both the born and the unborn. Unfortunately, yesterday began a term where all attempts will be made to lift the ban on partial birth abortion...and for that alone, I cannot agree that this new administration change is postive, good, or celebration-worthy. Convictions are compromised otherwise, and now it is our duty to pray for our new leader, show Christ-likeness, yet not confuse enlightenment superior to conviction. History was made yesterday, and in my mind it has nothing to do with race - was it supposed to? So, I conclude in saying we need more conviction, discernment, and wisdom with confidence that they all can intellegently coexist. This is God's standard and is joyfully mine. :)
Of course I obviously agree with everything you wrote in this blog. But someone pointing out that you didn't vote for Obama, after you wrote a blog about why you didn't vote for him, doesn't make them ignorant. I saw the link to this on Facebook and read the many comments that followed, and I see why people get frustrated on both sides of the fence. If you haven't doubted the system, then why do you write that we weren't living to our full potential?
It takes time...occasionally years...to educate oneself so that a thorough opinion can be formed, and I personally understand having conflicting opinions. But if you aren't careful, it can also lead to people thinking that you say some things to one group of people, and other things to another group of people, which could ultimately lead to no one believing what you say.
Carmen - when you write that "history was made yesterday, and in my mind it has nothing to do with race - was it supposed to?" I feel pretty certain that only a white person like you could think that. Although, I am white, and I think that's a ridiculous thing to say, write, or think. For the first time in our nation's history, we have a President who is not white. That has something to do with race, the struggle of a race that came to our country as slaves, and has only enjoyed the same freedoms that white folks like us have within the last 40 plus years. So yes, the history that was made had everything to do with race. That's not a bad thing.
As for the former President's "consistent" embrace of the one issue you appear to find important, I would encourage you to remember that abortion is not the only "life" issue (we lose far more children globally each day to preventable hunger and disease than we do to abortion). Before either of us get caught up in our own self-righteousness (e.g. God's standards, if we actually understood their cost, would be far to heavy for either of us to joyfully accept), we would be well-served to recall that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. That includes the former and present US Presidents as well.
To Micah - we are responsible for voting per morals in our country. Over and over in the Bible countries are judged by their leaders. As many babies are killed EACH year in America as American soldiers have been killed in EVERY war from the Revolutionary War to the Iraq War. If this ban is lifted, this administration should not exalted for being historic but rather should sicken us and we pray for mercy and grace. Other children's hunger and disease globally is tragic but does not suffice the adoption of an administration that lifts the ban on partial birth abortions. The statement made in your previous comment does not equate passion about the rights of children. I also can sense in the statement of "As far the former President's "consistent" embrace of the one issue you appear to find important..." If you don't find the right to life important at all stages of pregnancy, just drop the arguing Scripture in the same paragraph. I agree Christ died for all... however, the standards for his children are clear. I am so tired of people making Christianity complicated. It's not. God is love. He is gracious. He is merciful. We are sinners. Romans 6:1 "Shall we continue insin that grace may abound? certainly not." I am a Christian. I confess I am not perfect,...still a sinner.. but I have been sanctified and am to stand unashamed proclaiming what is right and abhorring what is not. That's not pompous, it's Scipture. Tolerance isn't a redeeming, hard to find character trait. Conviction is.
And yes, history is made with every decision -good and bad. I stand proud of the decisionss that Bush made in banning partial birth abortions.If Obama lifts the ban, the historical mark of race is insignificant to me. I have studied the struggles and inequality and wrong that African Americans have suffered. I won't say I understand, and you acting as if you do is ignorant. It is tragic what they have gone through. However, that doesn't change that if murdering a baby at any stage of preganncy is made legal - race is not the significant historical marker.
Sorry, Theresa for murkying up your page. I appreciate you and your blogs.
Carmen, my concern as a Christian is with all issues of life, death, justice, and faith. It includes the debate over a woman's right to choose, but it is not limited to it. Nor is it limited to American children, or American soldiers, but rather a whole world that, in large part, does not come close to having the rights or the wealth we often take for granted in North America. I'm afraid your focus is much more narrow than mine.
I'm also intimately aware of what growing up in a conservative, Southern Baptist faith tradition looks and feels like, and can relate to this idea that there are only one or two issues that should inform how and why we vote (abortion and, more recently, equal rights for gay people). I was spoon-fed that too, however, I reject that outright because the Bible that we've each been quoting is much more expansive in how we relate to and with our culture. There's nothing complex about that, in fact, just the opposite.
Finally, I'm in no position to claim I understand the discrimination, injustice, and hatred inflicted upon black people. I never said I was. However, when you opted to ignore the importance of race, as well as the victory over the aforementioned discrimination illustrated by the election of a black President, it was indicative of your ignorance, not mine.
Hello gang...there is no more important issue than life in electing leaders...to say that someone is "spoon-fed" really attacks the integrity and motives of God's messengers and that can be a dangerous proposition...certainly God's Word has much to say in reference to how we treat one another within our culture, but God is quite clear in His Word that He "hates hands that shed innocent blood" (Prov. 6:17)reject that or not, its up to you, but know that with more "Biblical knowledge" comes more accountability...I too believe that Tuesday was historic and our country has come a long way, but he was the "wrong African-American" to get this far...he is a socialist baby-killer along with the majority of democrats who are beholden to the abortion industry for all their campaign contributions...I do not claim and categorically reject the notion that republicans are the answer for the answer is Jesus and Him alone and a right relationship with Him...
Hey Mike...don't know you, but I love a good debate. I agree that life should be a determining factor in electing someone. However, again and again and again, the question is asked. What about life outside of just the abortion issue? I'm not seeing an answer to that here. Abortion is just one facet of the prolife movement. To limit the decision to elect someone based on just that facet of being prolife is irresponsible as a Christian. Why does the Church ignore the other lives being lost? Because it's not convenient. The Church has failed in a big way and I blame it for the current state of affairs. If the church was doing what it is supposed to be doing, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I've said it in the FB response (and much more), Christians need to stop hiding behind an elected official or a "movement" and get out there and love as Christ did. If the church was doing that, we wouldn't be so concerned with who was in office.
Those are interesting points, Mike (if not a little pejorative at times), and since issues of life (as I detailed briefly above) are so broad and all-encompassing, I agree: everything that falls under that umbrella should inform how and why we vote. It clearly was what led me to vote for Barack Obama in the primaries and again in the general election.
No one's arguing that God hates the hands that shed innocent blood. But if we really believe that, wouldn't God be pretty upset over the approximately 90,000 Iraqi civilians who have died since 2003? Does he hate former President Bush for that, or Don Rumsfeld, or Dick Cheney? President Bush was, after all, the one giving the order, and did so (if we remember) based on some really shaky information, that later turn out to be made up. If it really is all innocent blood that He hates shed, my guess is that their blood is worth just as much as that of an unborn baby. If that's the case, what about Darfur? If ethnic cleansing and genocide don't meet the standard for innocent bloodshed, I don't know what does. Now, granted, those things take place thousands of miles away, and it's easy to forget about.
Please note: I wasn't implying that "someone" was spoon-fed, but rather that I was spoon-fed (and I feel pretty comfortable speaking for myself). No one's being attacked, but at the same time, we shouldn't be willing to give someone a free pass just because the title includes the word "Reverend." Asking questions is a great way to grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ...or at least that's been my experience.
As for your contention that President Obama was somehow "wrong" for this position...clearly not. He wasn't appointed, he was elected. Among those votes were pastors, deacons, elders, and Sunday School teachers (probably some ushers, too). Who would be the right black man to "get this far", Mike? J.C. Watts? LeVar Burton? The subtext of a statement like yours (whether you mean it or not) walks a fine line between legitimate disagreements over policy and subtle racism.
As for the socialism/baby killer stuff...those lines are even more worn out that they were during the election, and are the antithesis of finding solutions to our nation's ills. You can be a part of the solution (which will take all people, from all faiths, with a wide range of ideals and convictions), or you can be a part of the problem (i.e. spend the next four years listening to Rush and hoping the President fails). Because I imagine you and I agree on most if not all of the truly important issues (specifically the Gospel, and it's power to change lives), I hope you'll choose to former.
The scrambling to rationalize and list this as "only one issue" is exhausting. As if the other issues somehow is supposed to "override" and thus make abortion insignificant? I just think if a partial birth abortion was witnessed by more Christians- would they be so cavalier? Would they be able to put blinders on and rationalize it as just ONE of many issues? This has nothing to do w/ denominational background - though I will take the "lashing" that was given that my parents raised me in a conservative Southern Baptist church. BTW, That wasn't as painful as intended...even if it is lumped with an assumption that I cannot reason and decide things on my own. The Bible will always be the standard I use unapologetically. That's a negative? hm.I don't sit on a fence and leave people guessing where my loyalties lie and say "I'll take this and ignore that." I responsibly consider all issues when I vote - but this one issue: you are right Micah, I stick to my convictions on and will not vote for someone who does not value the lives of the unborn. I don't judge people, but I do stand for principles and I am unwilling to compromise- in the booth and out. I am accountable for myself, my actions, my provileges- voting is one of them. If more in the church would do that, we wouldn't be under an administration that boldly states they want to lift the ban. If the Christian community held strong to their convictions and were as passionate about it as they are to get to the right restaurant after church, either this official would not have won the democratic primary and then the election ...or...gasp...maybe he would have to reconsider his platform?? People are too busy trying to fight with each other rather than uniting for the rights of the unborn. You never have stated that you think abortion is okay. So, I am left to assume that you probably don't think it's right but merely deem it as a "social issue" and that there are other more important things. It really saddens my heart...and I am being upmost sincere and not sarcastic...that somewhere in your journey you feel that people who vote according to their prolife stance are narrow-minded. God will not bless a nation - in all the other issues we hold dear - when we don't value the gift of life. That is the bottom line - we will be judged. So, I say the cart before the horse - value the life he starts and perhaps blessings of prosperity, cures to diseases, etc will follow. :)
Micah- have you heard the statistic - more babies have died THIS YEAR in abortion than in all the wars combined? and that is with the ban UNlifted? Secondly, have you sat in on some cabinet meetings and gotten information I have missed? Yeah, the weapons of mass destruction - I get that. Mistake, Do you personally know what all has been intercepted by our military forces that has kept further attacks like 9/11 from occurring? I hear from soldiers all the time how the Iraq people are appreiciative as a whole for what they are doing over there and the democracy they have accomplished. Of course, don't count on Keith Olbermann to report that. A couple of shoes get thrown by a rebel..there will ALWAYS be contention over there ....and again, the media runs it in the ground to make Bush look like a fool.
So many people feel "informed" because they read and keep up with current events via media. That, in itself, is being "spoon fed." Talk to more military - people who have been there.,,people who served under President Bush in the military. There are a few exceptions you can find, but the majority military would not only argue your points you made above but would be insulted.
Let me preface this by saying how much I am thankful for open discussion. It is much-needed among Christians, I believe. Unfortunately, the computer does not take into account tone, sarcasm, etc. I know I speak for Micah when I say the following: I am not saying abortion should not be considered. Quite the contrary. I have given birth to two beautiful children. If I could do away with abortion, I would. However, I think there is a difference between being anti abortion and prolife. To me prolife is where you get into the "so much more to the issue" discussion. Carmen, you mentioned watching partial birth abortions...I'm sure you can on the internet. However, I can use that argument to ask: What if you could watch a child starve to death. Would that have any weight? I get that abortion is your guiding issue. Ours is life in general, unborn or not. can you have it both ways? nope. Why? Because there is sin in the world, plain and simple. While I do not support abortion, I do support the woman's right to choose. I know many Christians believe this stance somehow questions my Salvation, but I believe it to be quite the contrary. I believe in a big God-one that does not concern himself with a certain law or the lifting of a ban but rather in how the Church loves people. Bottom line, if the Church was doing what is supposed to be doing, abortion would not exist. I don't know how that can be argued. As for the military, I have complete and utter respect for those members of the military who are fighting for the freedom of ALL Americans. If someone is only fighting for the freedom of a select few that follow their own leaning, then to be quite honest, I wish they were not defending my freedom. Freedom is freedom. The freedom to choose. Free will. I guess, I celebrate choice not because is allows this or that, but because it allows us to freely seek God's will without being forced into one decision or another. I cannot, in good conscience, base my decision on abortion simply because there are so many other issues concerning life that get ignored because it is not convenient for the Church to address (ie. it calls attention to the failure of Christians everywhere). I am not concerned with the lifting of the ban simply because I trust a God who does not need a law, ban or otherwise to work in the hearts of those struggling with this decision. I rest assured in that. Abortion, in this sinful world, will always exists. So will the taking of innocent blood by other means. My goal is to somehow make a difference in the lives of others in such a way that prevents the need for abortion. That is where my disappointment with the Church lies. We are so busy freaking out about the abortion issue that we fail to help prevent the need in the first place.
I too love the debate and thank each of you for sharing in this experience...now...to suggest racism Micah, subtle or otherwise, is insulting as I thought you knew me and my heart better than that...to say that Obama was not the righ African american to have risen to this height is not racist...I am saying that because this is a center-right country, not socialist...I would rather have seen someone like Michael Steele or Alan Keyes (of whom I voted for in the presidential primary the last time he ran)because they are conservative people to include being pro-life...now onto the war...I really don't want to get into the fact that all those Senators who voted for the war were looking at the same info the President saw, or that fact that Russian trucks were documented leaving Iraq before the war started headed for Syria, but that was "discounted by the media because that would have not served their agenda to discredit Bush" yes a lot of people died in that war and are still dying, however was it right for us to stop a man who not only gassed his own people, but clearly murdered untold thousands who disagreed with him? Yes it was! I cry out for Darfur and Zimbabwe and the Democratic republic of Congo where lives are being taken, innocent lives because of power hungry corrupt, and yes lost people without Jesus in their hearts...according to your post, it would seem that we would be o.k. to go into Darfur, but not Iraq? I do not wish or pray or hope that Obama fails; quite the contrary, I pray that God will use him as an instrument of righteousness, but I do hope and pray that he is unable to turn this country into a socialist nation where unborn babies are killed in the womb...look up a piece by Dick Morris, former Clinton adviser, as to his prediction of what this nation will look like in 4 years if Obama gets his way (published on I think the 21st) I am curious that if all the umbrella of life issues are what guided you to vote, then how does that equate to a vote for Obama? Clearly he is not a person who respects the life of the unborn...it was Obama who blocked legislation in his state of Illinois that would have afforded protection to babies that survived a botched abortion because it might interfere with the "right to choose"...Tricia...I believe that Christians are concerned about all facets of life and not just abortion...its just that abortion gets all the attention...just ask the people of New Orleans and Mississippi who rebuilt their homes and fed them and provided water and so forth...Southern Baptist...Who arrived in New York after 9/11 and cleaned apartments that were caked in debris from teh falling towers and fed and clothed people...Southern Baptist...look around the world and you will see Southern Baptist missionaries are teaching people how to clean their drinking water, grow crops, build hospitals, teach pre-natal care,are you sensing a pattern here? The list is endless, so yeah the church has not done the job through the years but she is trying to make amends even today...Christians are getting out there and loving as Christ loved...you just don't see it because its not advertised...certainly the church shares in responsibility, but there is a larger battle between good and evil going on and people without Christ are capable of a multitude of atrocities...
Micah...you know that I love ya', even if you voted for a democrat!!!!!
Micah...ignore that last post...I thought you were someone else...
Tricia...here is an example of what I am talking about:
Called to Rebuild Homes and Lives
God uses volunteer’s skills to help others
By Adam Miller
For now the small brick ranch on Dreux Avenue is quiet, except for the scraping of the puddy knife Andy King is using on some recently hung dry wall. That and the intermittent explanation of what it takes to do a good drywall job.
“It’s tough work and very few people want to do it,” says Andy, a 66-year-old retired pastor, farmer, and drywall specialist with the Baptist Bricklayers of Tennessee. He works his puddy knife along a rough ceiling seam. “You want the mud to flower out like this so you don’t have any rough spots.”
Andy has hung drywall since he was 24, but farming has been his day job for most of his life. Andy still farms but now his day job is hanging drywall and making sure it’s well mudded.
He’s worked this job for two and half years through Operation NOAH Rebuild. This house in New Orleans is King’s 24th renovation project and reflects how far Operation NOAH Rebuild has brought hundreds of residents and churches in three years.
Since Operation NOAH Rebuild started in the spring of 2006 in response to the devastation left by Hurricane Katrina, more than 23,000 Southern Baptist volunteers have rebuilt 148 homes, made 1,200 more homes livable, and helped 13 churches become operational again.
King started on his first rebuild project in Pascagoula, Mississippi, in March 2006 after Hurricane Katrina destroyed much of the Gulf Coast in Mississippi and Louisiana. He’s also worked in Slidell, Louisiana. He and wife, Charlene, have lived out of their RV for most of those two and a half years, traveling back to Tennessee occasionally to help with their son’s harvest on the family farm.
“I’ll go home to help with the soybeans, and then we’ll be back here again,” says Andy.
Charlene does administrative work at the NOAH headquarters on the Mississippi River’s west bank, while Andy is currently the only drywall specialist on the NOAH team.
“God wants us to go wherever and whenever He wants,” says Andy.
“Skilled volunteers are an essential part of our work down here,” says David Maxwell, Operation NOAH Rebuild’s project coordinator. “Having someone who can do plumbing work or skillfully set drywall, those people are hard to come by. What we need are crew chiefs who can do sheetrock, plumbing or electrical work and teach others.”
Andy King, with his attention to detail and a seemingly untiring work ethic, is the perfect example of how God can use any skill to glorify Himself and to bring others closer to Him. Andy’s and Charlene’s life tells the story of a couple who looked around them—in their Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria—to see where in the world God was at work. And they joined Him in New Orleans! OM
Adam Miller is associate editor of On Mission.
First on the scene
In an event like Katrina or the more recent Hurricane Ike, more than 85,000 trained disaster relief volunteers are ready at a moment’s notice to be deployed. They provide physical, emotional, and spiritual help to victims by providing meals, helping with clean up and child care, and offering counseling. Volunteer teams respond to disasters within their own state and work cooperatively with other states in larger emergencies.
Mike, I don't doubt the church isn't doing something. I guess my concern is the lack of genuine relationships in which Christ could be presented, even in Columbus. Christians getting to know their gay neighbor or Muslim co worker. Relational ministry, if you will. I would like to see more of a personal investment into non believers by Christians on a daily basis, not just when mission trip times rolls around. As for abortion, Mike you nailed it. The point I was trying to make was that there are more life issues than abortion. It does not in any way suggest abortion to be less important, but that we simply miss the other lives being lost becasue abortion gets all the press. I couldn't agree more with that. And as for the Southern Baptists doing all the work, give us Methodists some credit :)
WOW. Obama and his administration will are implementing an end to world hunger and disease!!! That is great news! Nevermind, they are planning to remove the ban of partial birth abortions...they are saving lives! You probably could find Bush snatching food from a starving child on the internet...oh wait, no probably not. Yes, this is sarcasm and stupidity but so are the analogies of equating the items on Obama's global agenda to Christian values. The first goal is to honor God as a nation, and then we can reach out to others with wisdom and confidence throughout the world. BTW, is Obama going to have Gitmo residents reside.. where? I just don't hear even his strongest supporters voice what he will do to better America. I have listened carefully to 2 years of speeches and rallies - it's all rhetoric. When it comes to values and what he supports, I simply don't agree and stick to my convictions. I will pray for him and our country faithfully. Peace.
I love how everyone is praising this man and he hasn't even done anything yet. The fact that one of the first things he talked about doing is closing Guantanamo Bay. I'd love to hear what he plans to do with the men who want people in this country dead. I will be praying for The President and his advisors and I hope that he does things that are good for this country and right for this country. I hope he does things that God wants for this country. This is a race issue and then again it isn't. Basically what I mean is it depends on who you ask. I'm not racist at all and think all men are created equal. However, this election isn't really gonna change anything. Basically I'm saying that all the people out there that don't like the man cause he is black, are still gonna feel the same way they do now and after he is gone. I didn't vote for him because he is for abortion. He is for gay marriage. He wants this country to be a socialist country. That day was a great thing for the spirits of the black people. I'm asking folks to wait and see what the man does before you start praising him just because he happens to be a different color. Thats not what an election is based on. It shouldn't be based on Democrats or Republicans. I am mostly Republican because I agree with what most of them stand for and what they believe in. Everyone blames Bush for everything that is going on as far as war, gas prices and the economy. The man couldn't do anything without Congress. Mccain was the lesser of the two and i'm disappointed in Republicans for not finding a better nominee. I was watching the view the other day with my dad(lol he records it) and they were talking about President Bush. Barabra Walters was saying how she met him and he was such a gentle and noble man. And she said how good of a man he was. Then you hear Joy say "I don't care if he is a good man or not or care about him personally. I just care about his politics and policies". Now I don't know about any of you but I want my President to have good Character and its people like her in this country and on Liberal News stations that make me sick because they think we want to here the crap that comes out of their mouth. I heard people saying that this was The most important Inaugeration in U.S. history. lol don't you think the most important one was the very first one with George Washington? People in the news made this election a race election and thats why people are so brain washed.
I really appreciate the comments and the Honest, Open Discussion that has been going on in the past day or so. I am thankful for all of you and your opinions and your ability to debate with one another in a kind, warm, and compassionate manner.
I love you all.
I am not going to direct any of this at any specific person. If you feel convicted or upset or anything over anything that I have to say then I guess it was directed to you. If not, then it wasnt.
It's amazing to me the extremely high level of "buffet Christianity" we have in this country. People like to have a little bit of this, maybe some of that, but def. not that, oh and I think I might take just a small portion of this....It's absolutely ridiculous. As a Christian, we dont pick and choose what we believe in from the Bible or what we stand for. You just cant. It will eventually erode away your entire testimony.
To honestly say that you are against abortion but support a womans right to choose..? HUH?!? That makes ZERO sense. I'll tell you what womans "choice" I agree with...the choice to save sex for marriage. You violate that and get pregnant, Im just as sorry as I can be but that doesnt mean that abortion is then ok because "you arent ready to be a mom" or whatever little "convenience" statement you wanna put in there. Over 90% of abortions in this country happen because of the "god of convenience" and it makes me sick.
And another thing - to say that life is about more than just abortion is true to a degree. Obviously I dont want there to be hunger in this world. I absolutely hate the thought of children going to bed hungry. But lets think about it like this - is there legislation being brought up that will prevent children in this country from being fed or prevent people in this country from helping those outside this country?.....I didnt think so. Is there legislation being brought up that will ALLOW THE SLAUGHTERING OF MILLIONS OF INNOCENT, DEFENSELESS BABIES and allow our money to go towards the support of abortion and abortion teaching in the world abroad by our very own US citizens?.....Just let that sink in.
Am I saying that more shouldnt be done to help prevent world hunger and such? No, obviously not. But at the same time, things are being done. This is just a big world and everyone cant be helped at one time. And you just dont hear about it because the majority of media outlets dont want to show great things being done by Christians. It would go against their massive liberal agendas.
And to say that someone is racist because they say that Obama was quite possibly the wrong black man to make it this far (or should I say bi-racial man) is absolutely ridiculous. If there was a black person (or for that matter any other race) that was a God-fearing, Bible-believing (100%, not the buffet believing style) candidate..I would vote for him/her in a heart beat.
Race ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT guide my vote - never has and never will. What a person stands for and represents and my Biblical convictions are what guide my vote.
Tricia...I would be more than happy to sing the praises of the Methodists! It's just that I am SBC and have that information! I'm sure that the Methodists are holding their end of the bargin! I agree whole-hardedly that there are more life issues than abortion...its just that abortion is legislated...meaning that there is legislation that allows it and I believe this to be fundamentally wrong on so many levels and the new President sides with those who think that this is o.k. I will pray for him as I beleiev that this is the right thing to do, but I will fight every effort to make abortion more readily available or to erase the few gains that have been made to end this barbaric practice...
Mike - I appreciate you hanging in with the conversation and sticking to the issues. I'm enjoying the back and forth, and am grateful for the opportunity for iron to sharpen iron here. Also, I'll take any love, even when it's misdirected! Also, before this is all over, I may ask you to sing I Have Seen The Light just once. Be forewarned.
The futility of simply typing words is that nuance can't be communicated. I don't think you're a racist, but I said your words regarding the "right" African-American to get "this far", etc. (for which you've now provided a richer context) walked a fine line. Despite my love of the South, a predisposition to racism is too often our default - even in the most subtle ways - and it has to be guarded against. That's what I was going for.
Also, if we were a center-right country, John McCain would be President, and we wouldn't be having this conversation. However, I don't think we're exactly center-left either. We're somewhere in the middle (the center-center?), and even that middle fluctuates. We're not a socialist country either, and we don't have a socialist President (although I know how popular that is to say among conservatives). If wanting everyone to have healthcare, for example, is socialism, then I hope we're able to look past ourselves. I'm assuming you have healthcare, Mike. I do too. I pay for a portion of it, but my employer foots the majority of the bill. Perhaps you have a similar situation. If so, we're the lucky ones, and don't know what it would feel like to be without it day-in and out, or year-in and out. Just because something doesn't apply to us, or our neighbors or congregation, doesn't make it useless. That's why government programs (even the ones that need re-working) aren't all without merit, or somehow a threat to democracy.
Real quick: you wrote that "it was Obama who blocked legislation in his state of Illinois that would have afforded protection to babies that survived a botched abortion because it might interfere with the "right to choose." In reality, he voted against that legislation because it didn't include a medical clause that protected the health of the mother. I pray to God that I'm never in a position where I have to choose the life of my unborn child over the life of my wife, but if I am, my wife would come first, and I would want the right to make that decision. Both sides, sadly, are guilty of spinning voting records, and this is a classic example of that.
Here's my issue with the anti-abortion movement, and how it relates to the Republican Party and the evangelical Christian church: it doesn't appear to be anything other than lip service from the people you vote for. In fact, the truth is that, to capture the voting block that is the evangelical Christian church, all a candidate needs to do is say they're against abortion. Having a voting record helps, whether or not those votes really matter, or are just PR. What's actually being done though? Sure, Bush put Roberts and Alito on the Supreme Court, but to what end? What have they accomplished? And really, as far as abortion is concerned, do you honestly believe these next four (or eight) years would be much different under McCain than they will be under Obama? Sure, there's no way of knowing, but Clinton's eight years were not terribly different from Bush's (in terms of abortion rights or restrictions). Ultimately, if the only thing that's important is banning abortion, how are we any different today, after eight years of President Bush? The bottom line is this: if you want to be nominated as a Republican, you'd better say you're against abortion. Additionally, if you want to be nominated as a Democrat, you'd better say you're for a woman's right to choose. (Side note: no one is for abortion, which is to say, no one wakes in the morning and says with gusto "let the abortions begin") Neither side has to really mean it, but you have to say it. If you'll recall, James Dobson was unwilling to endorse John McCain until he picked Sarah Palin for his VP. Dobson dangled the voting block carrot and McCain got the message: pick one of us or we'll forget to vote in November. Ultimately, I take President Obama at his word when he says (to paraphrase) that we might not all agree on the right to choose, but we can all agree that we need to decrease the number of abortions. I also take him at his word when he says that he's a Christian. Perhaps the President, however, understands that ours is not a Christian nation, but a nation founded on freedom of, as well as from, religion. Our laws are made for and by a diverse group of people. Which is not to say you can't and shouldn't be fighting against abortion. But I think it's clear that to vote solely on that issue is just playing into the hand of people who use an incredibly emotional issue to their advantage when it comes to getting your vote. Lastly, we both know that banning anything doesn't ever eradicate it. We banned alcohol during prohibition, but it just went underground (or into the woods, rather). We banned the sale of some assault rifles, but if you knew someone who knew someone, you could buy one out of someone else's trunk. Even if Roe v. Wade is overturned, the issue of whether abortion is legal or not will go back to the states. Certainly some states will ban it, others will not. Doctors working in banned states will still perform abortions, it will just go underground. However, again, I'm not saying that it's not worth fighting for, I just think it should be gone about differently. Ending abortion is achieved much more effectively when we build relationships with people, make alternatives available, let them know they're loved...not simply shutting down a clinic or calling people murderers (unfortunately we have crazies on both sides of this issue). It's accomplished early on with sex-education that includes an honest discussion about abstinence, but covers everything from condoms to sexually-transmitted diseases as well. Preventing unplanned pregnancies will go a long way to reducing the number of abortions performed, and I'd much rather see us be pro-active rather than reactive.
Finally, I've gone on too long on a blog that's not mine. However, as we've both discovered, the questions deserve more than just bumper sticker zingers. Also, I'm intent on answering your question of what led me to vote for the President. If I wrote it here, I'd write twice as much as I already have, so I'll provide it via Facebook. Be well.
Just out of interest, Micah...what specifics made Obama your candidate of choice? As I read your thorugh thoughts via blog, I am deeply interested on what values Obama has that overrides the abortion "issue." I am sincerely interested and (though it is certain I wouldn't change my opinion for prioritizing the right to life) am curious why you felt he was right choice for you. I am nauseated be everyone that I know who voted because they were "ready for change." I want specifics. Will you indulge me? I am no longer interested in debating. It's done. Thanks:)
To call someone racist just because they don't like or Obama or didn't vote for him or they don't think he is the right black man is obsurd. To make an assumption like that is crazy. I didn't vote for him because of certain reasons that you already know from a previous post I made. Does any of that make me racist? If the man had the right values and morals then I would have voted for him, period. You want you're president to have good character don't you? Someone who wants to protect EVERY life in this country. Not to mention he is sticking his nose in other countries business by paying for their abortions. There is no exception for abortion, none. I don't care what happened with that person. Even if it is a very bad situation. God has a plan for that child and it shouldn't be slaughtered. Just because he is the President doesn't mean you have to respect him. People have to earn respect. Its not just given to someone because he is in a powerful position. To me he has to earn the peoples respect, especially in a position that he is in. As far as gay marriage goes, there is no exception to that. It should be illegal. There is only one thing I think should be allowed and thats the whole "if you're partner is about to die in the hospital, i think they should be allowed to see them. Thats the only thing though. Yes we have the free will to do anything we want but there is a difference between right and wrong. We can't just say they can do whatever they want because of that very reason because that negates what the bible says. They shouldn't be allowed to even be in a relationship anyway. It says in the Bible "A man shall not lay with another man". I never said hate them, and I never said disown them even though this is the toughest thing for me to do. You have to be willing to stand up for what you believe even when you have friends that disagree. Don't lower you're standards or go away from what you believe just for that reason. If you know the truth then why are you questioning yourself? Just think about some of this stuff cause this is a very important time we are living in right now and it will be for the next 4 years.
Jarrod -
1) Please tell me "there's no exception for abortion" when you become a teenage girl who's been raped by your stepfather. Tell me you "don't care what happened to that person" when it's your sister, cousin, best friend or wife. Your writing makes evident the emotional investment you have in this argument, however, I assure you, as important as it is to feel strongly about something, that emotion can also make you blind if you're not careful.
2) I meant to fill you in on this earlier, but neither President Obama or Vice President Biden support the legalization of gay marriage. That was covered months ago in the debates. So...that's kind of a non-issue.
Mike & Carmen - in an effort to give Theresa her blog back (although, I told her the other day how great this was for her Google ratings!), I'll put a link to my blog here in the comments. I'm in the process of answering your questions, but this is the weekend, and I have a princess dress-up party scheduled with my daughter. I appreciate your patience. Enjoy your Saturday!
Micah- one more thing.... I believe it shows error to rationalize the right to choose based on a few isolated very specific circumstances. As far as date rape and rape - there are many wounds from that, and I know someone personally that was faced with that dilemma. Christians should support that person to sustain the pregnancy to keep- or to give for adoption. The fact is that is a life!!...the circumstances are tragic, but nevertheless God allowed it and though we don't understand why, ending a life HE created is wrong. My 9 and 7 year old are already able to rationlize their sin when confronted. Even if the circumstances make the sinful action "understandable", it doesn't change the fact that the sin is still the sin. Period. Otherwise, we are saying our decision to have a baby "under the circumstances" is ours - when really it isn't. The science of conception is amazingly complex, but the origin and creator is God -EVEN if He didn't ordain the circumstances. Secondly, the scenario of choosing between your wife and a baby - wow, that is tough. So, to support this legislation under that bases summary is as follows: millions of babies are SACRIFICED/murdered each year and approvingly...based on a chance that your wife MAY have to give up her life?? That is quite a price for such a random scenario! It's a tough subject, but I as a woman would choose to give up my life if I knew that in exchange the millions of unborn children's rights were protected! I hope I am never faced to stand for my convistions in that circumstnace, but if so I know where I stand. If us Christians are weak enough to adjust our values, what if we are here during the end times...which is not clearly stated yay or nay in the Bible and I understand is debateable in itself. (I personally, hope for the best, and want to be as prepared for worst). But assuming Christians are here throught the tribulation, will some take the mark of the beast to save the life of their loved ones? What compromises are Biblical and which ones are just human logic...chalked with human reasoning and thus error. Eve thought it was reasonable to partake in the garden, right? Though it made sense, she was deceived and therefore refused to accept and obey God's command. Number 6 of the Ten Commandments is still one of God's commands. Scenarios weren't given to condone murder of the innocent. WHO are we here for and why are we here? We Christians need to stop being so easily "offended/defensive" and hellbent on rationalizing and stand up for what is RIGHT. It's not easy or likeable and even is offensive at times, but it's our purpose...and should be our resolve with firmness yet in love. :)
Micah
Why don't you tell me how you could even look at yourself in the mirror every morning after telling someone you think they should go through with an abortion. I agree 100% with what Carmen just said before me. Every bit of it is true. Who are you to decide that that babies life should end? That is one sin the Lord hates. "Hands that shed innocent blood." Its right there, black and white. As far as the gay marriage issue, I know he is against gay marriage, but he is for "civil unions". While we can't control anybody and the way they live, that doesn't mean that its right and it should be allowed, Period. And as far as abortion goes again, I told you once but I'll say it again. Those situations you were talking about are terrible and the people that commit those crimes and sins should be put to death or put in prison for life, but the issue here is LIFE. You don't slaughter an innocent baby because of what YOU think. Its about what God says, and therefore its wrong. God has a plan for that baby, no matter what it may be, he has a plan. Not to mention, YOU ARE GOING TO BE PAYING FOR OVERSEAS ABORTIONS NOW!! The man lifted that ban that PRESIDENT BUSH pounced on and said no way! You can't justify why you voted for him(if you did, i really meant people in general that voted for him). He is going to give a stimulus check to people who don't pay taxes. Basically he is saying "hey, you don't have to work, i'm going to give you money". Its right there, black and white, but nobody cares because to other people this is a race issue and now they are justified because someone of a different color is The President. This crap is bogus and I think this country is going down fast.
Micah...thanks for the back and forth and the opportunity to converse as the only way people will have clear understanding of why people believe or vote the way they do...In reference to the state bill...Obama did vote against it because of the interference to "choose" he also stated that it didn't have the health of the mother exception as you claim, but the bill was the same bill that was put forth federally of which I do not have the outcome of...in reference to McCain being president if we were center right: people realized that one candidate was the ultra-liberal and the other was a pretender and people will always vote for the "real thing"I myself was facing the thought of holding my nose to vote for Mccain and Palin gave me just a little better feeling about it...In reference to the evangelicals and the GOP...I too realize that most of it is lip service and most politicians will say anything to get elected and many of the so-called conservatives have been huge disappointments, but the fact is there is always a better chance of abortion being outlawed with Republicans...with Democrats, the chances are nill...the main thing about abortion and why it is so violently fought for by liberals is the MONEY...this is a billion dollar a year business and that is really what is driving this train...I don't know if you were around during the "forced busing" years of my youth, but I keep hearing about how racist the south is when you should have seen how they reacted in Boston when they started it up there! The fact is that the entire country has a racist history, not just the south...The only way that abortion will end is one heart at a time, but until then, I will continue to vote for those who believe in the pro-life issue and stand against those who believe that is should be a convenience issue...
Why I voted for President Obama.
I have comments in another blog arguing specifc points on "prolifeness." From opposing views, there have been a lot of general statements, specific scenarios, but there ..up to this point has been no response to facts. It is interesting when a person feels strongly about a specifc subject, but when it comes time for debating their premise is on fictious "what ifs" and the thesis is not based on anything Scriptural? It is rationalizing. There have been specific facts and statistics given by the "pro-life" crowd on this blog, but I have noticed that none have been addressed by pro-choice. Interesting.
I have comments in another blog arguing specifc points on "prolifeness." From opposing views, there have been a lot of general statements, specific scenarios, but there ..up to this point has been no response to facts. It is interesting when a person feels strongly about a specifc subject, but when it comes time for debating their premise is on fictious "what ifs" and the thesis is not based on anything Scriptural? It is rationalizing. There have been specific facts and statistics given by the "pro-life" crowd on this blog, but I have noticed that none have been addressed by pro-choice. Interesting.
Micah
Like I've said before in other comments on this blog, There are many more reasons why I didn't vote for Obama than just abortion. However, abortion is a huge issue and it is very important to me. Life should be protected no matter what happens. Even if it is something terrible. No I don't have the same experience with abortion as you do, but I do know what The Bible says about it and thats enough for me to have faith and trust in Christ alone. Knowing that he knows whats going on and what has happened, he has a plan for that baby and for that mother. There aren't exceptions for abortion. I've said enough about abortion, and I've backed up everything I've had to say and if you don't get it by now, you never will.
I was rooting for Mike Huckabee personally but that failed. I never said that Christians had to vote republican. As far as I'm concerned it shouldn't be about Democrats nd Republicans. I look at what that person stands for and try and see if that person has good character. I don't think he is whats best for this country, but when it comes to what God's plan for the country is, I, just like you have no say in who is in power. I'm not going to throw everything I know and believe out the window. And the fact that these "conspiracy theories" are being brought up is comical to me. The man did get sworn in on the Koran when he became a senator. As far as the "baby killer" goes. If he(well actually when he) makes abortion legal in this country, he will be held responsible for it. Just Bush was held responsible for everything that happened during those 8 years. It won't be just Obama, it will be whoever in Congress voted for it too. The bill that is going to passed says the abortion will be legal and that if a doctor at a hospital says that they wont perform an abortion when someone comes in and wants one, they will take away his liscense. There us so much more junk that its ridiculous, but I'm tired of this. I've made my point on a number of occasions.
Micah
Like I've said before in other comments on this blog, There are many more reasons why I didn't vote for Obama than just abortion. However, abortion is a huge issue and it is very important to me. Life should be protected no matter what happens. Even if it is something terrible. No I don't have the same experience with abortion as you do, but I do know what The Bible says about it and thats enough for me to have faith and trust in Christ alone. Knowing that he knows whats going on and what has happened, he has a plan for that baby and for that mother. There aren't exceptions for abortion. I've said enough about abortion, and I've backed up everything I've had to say and if you don't get it by now, you never will.
I was rooting for Mike Huckabee personally but that failed. I never said that Christians had to vote republican. As far as I'm concerned it shouldn't be about Democrats nd Republicans. I look at what that person stands for and try and see if that person has good character. I don't think he is whats best for this country, but when it comes to what God's plan for the country is, I, just like you have no say in who is in power. I'm not going to throw everything I know and believe out the window. And the fact that these "conspiracy theories" are being brought up is comical to me. The man did get sworn in on the Koran when he became a senator. As far as the "baby killer" goes. If he(well actually when he) makes abortion legal in this country, he will be held responsible for it. Just Bush was held responsible for everything that happened during those 8 years. It won't be just Obama, it will be whoever in Congress voted for it too. The bill that is going to passed says the abortion will be legal and that if a doctor at a hospital says that they wont perform an abortion when someone comes in and wants one, they will take away his liscense. There us so much more junk that its ridiculous, but I'm tired of this. I've made my point on a number of occasions.
TERRY SAID:
LIBERALS MUST NOT FORGET THAT 59MIL. PEOPLE VOTED FOR MCCAIN. AND MIL. OF PEOPLE DIDN'T EVEN GET OUT TO VOTE. SO TO THINK YOU HAVE A MANDATE IS CRAZY. WE HAVE TO PRAY THAT WE CAN WIN BACK THE CON. AND SEN. . IT ONLY TOOK 2 YEARS FOR THEM TO SCREW UP THE ECONOMY . PELOSI AND REED ARE IDIOTS AND THE WORST KIND OF LIBERALS. AND THEY HAVE THE PUPPET STRINGS TIED TO OBAMA. OBAMA IS READING RIGHT OUT OF THE LIBERAL PLAYBOOK . HE HAS HAD NONE OF HIS ON THOUGHTS.
Jarrod - if I can only debunk one urban legend for you, let it be the one about Obama and the Koran. Concern over a legitimate issue is fine. Continuing to repeat a lie, however, just makes you look silly. Despite the fact that this "story" is probably still being circulated around the internet, it's just not true. The following link to Snopes (facts, as it turns out, are really great things to have!) explains how it all got started:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/ellison.asp
One more thing, Jarrod:
You write, "if he(well actually when he) makes abortion legal in this country, he will be held responsible for it."
I guess you're talking about President Obama. And...abortion is already legal in this country. Just a heads-up.
Micah
I appreciate that heads up. As far him and The Koran go.......I wouldn't doubt that it happened. You don't really know what religion the man is. He has claimed to be a christian but he seems to be muslim to me. My thoughts on all that are simple. Listen to his pastor for like 5 seconds and then, maybe then you can understand the way this man thinks. Look at the people the he has associated himself with. There are so many things that YOU don't know about the man. I may not know it ALL but I, like a lot of other people want to know about all this stuff. The problem is the news never shed any light on any of these things. Sure he distanced himself from his pastor and practically disowned him but he went to that church and listened to that man for 20+ years. But some people say that he didn't agree with his pastor, he just went there. That makes no sense. The bottom line is, he has way too many things about him that people just don't know, and obviously a lot of people don't care cause he is the president. The news stations were too busy ripping Sarah Palin for God knows what every day of the week instead of talking about the questions about Obama. You can spout whatever you want but I watch as much news as I can. I watched every debate and listened to both men. I don't believe Obama to be as good a man as people think he is. He is a really good talker, thats it. He sugarcoats things. He makes things sound so good, even though they aren't. In 4 years, when this crap we are in has gotten worse, what will you say then? You either wont say much if anything or you will STILL defend him. I'm done commenting on this blog because I have nothing else to say. I have appreciate the back and forth and I hope that everyone who has spoke in here will be praying for Obama and the people that run this country. It was nice talking with all of you(Carmen, Micah, Theresa(Love you) etc....)
I didn't mean not to put my name on that last post. so i guess this is my last post.lol my bad
I am against abortion. There is nothing in me that feels like I would ever have be able to do it no matter the circumstances. However, having said that, I have never been the victim of rape or incest, nor has my life ever been in danger because I was having a baby. I don't know how I would react in those situations. So, I have a hard time judging women on that merit (or lack thereof) alone.
Next, I think big government is a bad thing. Soooooo...if we agree that abortion is murder (and let's just say that a baby is a baby from the moment of conception for argument's sake) then here is my fuzziness. Murder is against the law. We put people in jail and they might even end up on death row if the degree of murder was high enough. We say that abortion is murder (and I think that it is), but because it involves a woman's body, do we make it illegal and allow the government to govern our bodies too? Does it really become a law? If we give the government control over our bodies, what's next? In the same vein, how do we discourage abortion? And, if abortion is totally illegal, then what do we do with women who violate said law? Lock them up? Fine them?
I am not pretending to know the answers. I am just adding my two cents into this discussion. I am full of questions when it comes to abortion.
Theresa, you propose some really good questions. I really enjoy these discussions and it makes me think more thoroughly through things. My perspective is banning abortion wouldn't be big government governing a woman's body/decisions; it would make murder across the board illegal, or at least not government funded. It definitely wouldn't FUND abortions nationally and per legislation Obama already has signed and proposed, we would not fund global abotions. I am (for some reason) amazed that he has already got that rolling. Anyways, I know I don't have all the answers but I am pro-life under any circumstance. Also, if government wants to help, perhaps funding more affordable adoptions for families that are barren and would make great homes for children would be a place to start. Do you realize adoptions cost between
$20k-$30k?? There are many wonderful, stable homes with couples that are ready to make a family but can't take produce that sum up front. That would be govenrment supporting life. Wouldn't that be GREAT?! :)
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